[Heaven]

Ayatollah Sanei no longer qualified: Clerical body

A top clerical body in the holy city of Qom declares that Grand Ayatollah Yousuf Sanei no longer qualifies to be a marja al-taqlid, or a source of emulation — the highest clerical rank in Shia Islam.

The Qom Theological Lecturers Association, Jame-e-Modarressin said on Saturday that it had launched a yearlong investigation into the qualifications of Grand Ayatollah Sanei in response to repetitive inquiries on the issue, Fars news reported.

In a statement bearing the signature of Ayatollah Mohammad Yazdi, the former head of Iran's judiciary, the body announced that the result of the investigation indicate that Grand Ayatollah Sanei is not eligible to be a marja.

Grand Ayatollah Sanei, 72, has come under fire for its anti-government stance. He has also been criticized by millions of Iranians who took part in the demonstration on Wednesday.

http://www.presstv.c...ionid=351020101

[huda]

http://www.payvand.c...0/jan/1008.html
The hardliners of the Society of Qom Seminary Teachers do not in effect have the authority to withdraw Ayatollah Sanei's status as a Marja-e Taghlid since there is no official body regulating this aspect of the Shiite religion. Cleric's reach this status through faith of their followers and confirmation of "two fair and knowledgeable individuals." They are then expected to continue studies and research in religious matters and to issue relevant announcements called "fatwa" to suggest courses of action regarding situations that develop in the lives of their followers.

Therefore, while the Society of Qom Seminary Teachers has the capacity to approve a cleric's status as a Marja, it is not authorized to disqualify one.

[A Follower]

Some responses from another forum regarding the same subject:

Quote

I don't really care much all that much about his politics, and I think the list that is published of "acceptable" maraji` to be a ridiculous. And as lots of folks know, I don't even consider myself Usooli to begin with anyhow. That said, I don't disagree with this call. When Saanei started getting more notice I began looking at his fatawa, and I did find them pretty interesting. Further investigation though brought me to really question the basis of the conclusions he was coming to. Usefully, his site (the Persian and Arabic sections) do contain a lot of works, some quite detailed such as the transcription of some of his kharij lectures as well as a series of istidlali works based on his views on different topics in fiqh. That's very handy to learning the reasoning behind a jurist's rulings. So, I started reading them, but, what I found was very disappointing. What I read gave me the impression of coming to a conclusion first, and then trying to shape the evidence to suit it. Or, just dismissing the evidence altogether if it conflicts with said conclusion that one started with. This isn't how fiqh is supposed to work though. It is not the jurist's job or right to go around declaring laws to suit their views or views which coincide with whatever is currently popular, and in coming to conclusions of research personal opinion and bias should not hold sway. It is simply to find as unbiasedly as possible what the Shari`a says and report it to the people, regardless of one's personal wont. And when you find a jurist whose views are in serious conflict with the centuries of jurisprudence before him, particularly on issues which just happen to line him up with the more popular tendencies of the day it should really give you pause as to where he's getting his stuff from.

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*sigh* Sometimes I wish that people should try to investigate the matter in depth before throwing their 2 cents.

Yesterday I had the oppurtunity to talk to a Sheikh who is at dars e kharij level himself under Ayatollah Makarem Shirazi. We talked about this issue in quite detail and there were certain things that were agreed on from the onset such as that Sheikh Saanei is indeed a mujtahid as he has an ijaza and he does teach dars kharij as well. Sheikh was explaining that the issue regarding the fatwas of Sheikh Saanei has been there for a while well before this statement, within the Hawza circles there are many critics of his fatwas and his methodology. And in his view, he was saying that a lot of people were emulating him due to his popularity and his fatwas rather than on the basis of his knowledge, this is a point which can be argued.

The Sheikh further stated that it is more to do with the methodology that Sheikh Saanei uses because of which this statement was released. Something which Br Macisaac mentioned in his post previously, in essence the Sheikh was saying that some of his fatwas are without the 'application of Fiqh' and the statement is so that people realise this and that his status as a Marja has been revoked for this reason ie the lack of 'application of Fiqh'. I am using the quote marks because this is a term I think many of us would not understand due to the complexity but it relates in a nutshell to what Bro Macisaac stated. Since this is not a fiqhi discussion I shall leave it at that.

He did however say that the timing of the statement is not particularly right but at the same time the Hawza has a duty and hence the statement.

As for the questions posed further by Br Redrum I believe, I shall be meeting the Sheikh again so I will inquire from him and post soon Inshallah.

Thread abt the Marjiyyah of Saanei

Also, do note the Ahlul Kibra never specified him as a Marja to begin with like they have done with most of the others. And it is illogical to suggest that they can appoint a marja but not remove him.

[Bilaal]

I have always had my doubts over sheikh saanei

[huda]

Salaams,

There were even some mujtahids during the times of Imam Khomeini who openly doubted his ijtihaad when he pronounced his ruling that chess is halaal to play if no gambling is involved. They were literally freaking out but it didn't hurt him.

Abul Qasim al-Khu'i openly doubted the ijtihaad of Muhammad Shirazi but it didn't hurt him.

Some 'ulama from doubted the ijtihaad of Sayyid Fadlullah but it didn't harm him.

I can understand some people doubting the ijtihaad of Saanei because he has come to different conclusions compared to other mujtahids on some issues. He has not hidden his research though. It is openly available as to how and why he came to conclude as he did on those things.

As for Muhammad Yazdi, he is known to be ultra-conservative. For example on music, even me as a layperson, when you read some of those ahaadeeth apparently againsts all forms of music like mentioned in Dastaghab's Greater Sins, it makes one wonder, what is going on? How can anyone concluded any form of music is allowed, be it even nawha, matam or nasheed. In fact some Muhaddith's like Shaykh Abbas Qumi were against even musical nawhas and matam too, as mentioned in his muntahal amaal.

It is not going to hurt Saanei. Saanei has been a mujtahid for over 50 years. He has educated people who became mujtahids too.

I am so happy that Abdullah Jawadi Amuli and Ibrahim Amini disassociated themselves from the pronouncement of Yazdi. I wonder if Sayyid Khamenei backs up Yazdi's opinion. Would that make it illegal for Iranians to do taqleed of Saanei? Would they end up in jail if the gov't found out? lol.

[huda]

FYI

...However, Sanei was not without some prominent supporters of his own in the religious establishment. The pro-reformist cleric Ayatollah Tahiri, formerly responsible for delivering the Friday sermon in Isfahan, and the Society of Fighting Clerics, to which former Iranian president Mohamed Khatami and presidential candidate Karroubi belonged, upheld Sanei's credentials.

When asked about the statement by the Association of Seminarians at Qom, Grand Ayatollah Sistani, residing in Iraq, responded that the association was not an agency that could designate religious authorities. The response of this eminent Shia figure can also be taken as an expression of support for Sanei. Grand Ayatollah Makarem Shirazi and Grand Ayatollah Mousavi Ardibeli were even more explicit, stating that Sanei did indeed possess the necessary qualifications to serve asmarjaa lil- taqlid (an authority to be emulated) and, hence, merited the title of Grand Ayatollah.



http://weekly.ahram....10/981/re10.htm

[A Follower]

huda, on 23 January 2010 - 09:33 PM, said:

I am so happy that Abdullah Jawadi Amuli and Ibrahim Amini disassociated themselves from the pronouncement of Yazdi. I wonder if Sayyid Khamenei backs up Yazdi's opinion. Would that make it illegal for Iranians to do taqleed of Saanei? Would they end up in jail if the gov't found out? lol.

I have not seen Ayatollah Jawad Amouli distance himself from the statement, do you have any proof of that?

As for the other article you linked, it actually places Ayatollah Jawad Amouli on the fence as it states. While I am still interested to see what Ayatollah Makarem Shirazi said regarding this statement as I asked someone who works closely with his office in Qum, and their response was that the Ayatollah has not made any specific statement regarding it. If you can provide a link that would be great in farsi please. Thanks.

[huda]

salaam 'alaykum,

I found this so far, in Arabic:

من جانبه، المح آية الله جوادي آملي، الذي يعد احد ابرز مراجع الدين في قم ويشكل ركنا اساسا في مجمع مدرسي الحوزة العلمية، الى عدم قانونية قرار المجمع في نكران مرجعية صانعي، حينما قال «انا لم احضر منذ فترة طويلة في المجمع»

http://www.alraimedi....aspx?id=176997

I don't know Farsi very well but you can google it and see what turns up:
http://www.google.co...hi=&safe=images

[A Follower]

^ I inquired from someone who knows many of the close students of Ayatollah Jawad Amouli and Ayatollah Makarem Shirazi and the response I was given was that both of these marjas in their public lectures have denied any sort of distancing from the statement of the organisation regarding the marjiyyat of Sheikh Saanei.

Quote

It is not going to hurt Saanei. Saanei has been a mujtahid for over 50 years. He has educated people who became mujtahids too

FYI, no one has stated he is not a mujtahid. I am sure you understand there is a difference in Mujtahid and Marja. Even now, after the statement, Sheikh Saanei is still considered a mujtahid even by the organisation itself.

[huda]

salaam 'alaykum,

Who are these "students"? All I can do is quote articles online in English and Arabic. You are lucky that you know Farsi. Please post your question at
http://www.facebook....ei/130510275328 as there are a lot of Iranians there who also know Farsi. Perhaps they can better
answer your question.

There is no difference between a mujtahid and a marja' except popularity. If a lot of people do taqleed of a particular mujtahid he is considereda marja'. If a particular marja' has a risaalah 'amaliyah who many people follow he is a marja'. Ayatullah Saanei has both.

See http://jannaati.com/...ndex.php?page=6

If a few mujtahids believe Saanei is making errors on his views on certain issues it is their right to draw such an opinion but it doesn't mean that they are correct. By nature every single mujtahid believes he is correct in his view and every other mujtahid is wrong in his view if he has a different view then his on a particular issue. That is the nature of ijtihaad. Because Saanei has such unique views on certain issues it is natural that many mujtahids would question his expertise.

For example if 10 professors try to solve a complex math problem and 8 got one answer and 2 got a different answer does it mean that the 2 are wrong? Sure the 8 would insist that the 2 are wrong because they are so confident about their conclusions and they are experts.

As you know already, I do tab'eedh in taqleed.

http://www.aimislam....ic/7964-taqlid/

When the experts can not tell who is the most knowledgeable mujtahid among themselves how can the layperson tell who is? If you have 10 mujtahids and all 10 believe that one among them is the most learned then the other 9 should step down right? Now when you have 30 mujtahids and none believe another is more qualified mujtahid then himself how can the laity know who is most qualified? They can't. It is practically impossible.

I'm sticking to Saanei. Saanei, Jannaati and Fadlullah agree on a lot of issues. I have recently learned that there are two schools of ijtihaad nowadays.

http://www.theameric...in_islamic_law/

Lol. I guess Saanei had it coming to him eventually when he called other jurist ignoramuses.

"Sanei has gone further than most other scholars. In my discussions with him he allowed women to lead men in prayers, even in a public setting. Most maraji‘ have insisted that only men can lead other men in prayers. Sanei admits that there are petrified fossilized devout ignoramuses who prevent such reforms in the law to take place. It has to be stated that many other jurists disagree with the reform-minded jurists. "

[A Follower]

huda, on 28 January 2010 - 04:12 PM, said:

salaam 'alaykum,

Who are these "students"? All I can do is quote articles online in English and Arabic. You are lucky that you know Farsi. Please post your question at
http://www.facebook....ei/130510275328 as there are a lot of Iranians there who also know Farsi. Perhaps they can better
answer your question.

Salaams,

I am getting my information first hand from close students of the Marjas mentioned. I do not need to verify it from people on Facebook. If you have any contacts in Qum, then do so and ask them. Also do note, both Ayatollah Makarem and Ayatollah Jawad Amouli do regular classes open to public so one can inquire during those too.

Quote

There is no difference between a mujtahid and a marja' except popularity. If a lot of people do taqleed of a particular mujtahid he is considereda marja'. If a particular marja' has a risaalah 'amaliyah who many people follow he is a marja'. Ayatullah Saanei has both.

See http://jannaati.com/...ndex.php?page=6

See, that is your view that popularity is what makes a marja. Anyhow that is not what the Hawza circles believe or propogate. For example, the criticism on Saanei has been long within the hawza circles coming from very established Scholars well before his outbursts against them. However, the criticism is not regarding his view rather his methodology, something which in the quoted posts in my initial post on the topic show. If you knew farsi I would have linked you a few articles that were released talking about the fatwas of Saanei in detail highlighting how they do not conform to a standard of Fiqh or have any application of Fiqh in them.

The reason he is so popular is because his fatwas appeal to many who just want an easy version of Islam to put it lightly. Some of his fatwas do not reflect any aspect of Fiqh in them if you were to scrutinize them in detail rather it is based more on a humanistic view.

Quote

By nature every single mujtahid believes he is correct in his view and every other mujtahid is wrong in his view if he has a different view then his on a particular issue.

Not quite. Even amongst the Marjas the mainstream ones that is you will varied opinions on subjects. Take the issue of IVF, Ayatollah Sistani and Ayatollah Khamenai have difference of opinion, take the issue of Kurr water, there is a difference on the number of spans between the Marjas etc. These differences reflect an outcome concluded after going through the hadiths on the subject etc. Now when something is obviously not fully established in hadith then how can that be considered a valid opinion?

Amongst the Marjas there are various methodologies which they apply in order to formulate a ruling. However all these methodologies [should] take into account the importance of naqli sources ie the Quran and the Hadith for the ruling, it cannot work alone with the Aql as it is implied by certain individuals.

Quote

When the experts can not tell who is the most knowledgeable mujtahid among themselves how can the layperson tell who is? If you have 10 mujtahids and all 10 believe that one among them is the most learned then the other 9 should step down right? Now when you have 30 mujtahids and none believe another is more qualified mujtahid then himself how can the laity know who is most qualified? They can't. It is practically impossible.

We have already been through once before and the answer has been given. Determining the most knowledgeable is not a hard process, if you over simplify it then everything seems practically impossible but if one analyses the aspect of most aalim objectively then it is not hard to reach a conclusion. FYI, in the Hawza circles today Ayatollah Waheed Khorasani enjoys the position of the most Aalim but this is not reflect in the public or layman domain due to other factors.

And one can argue that doing tab'eedh is very more harder because you have to conclude that two scholars are on the same level of knowledge, you cannot just pick and choose because the fatwas of one suits your view in some aspects and in other aspects, the other marja's.

Quote

"Sanei has gone further than most other scholars. In my discussions with him he allowed women to lead men in prayers, even in a public setting. Most maraji‘ have insisted that only men can lead other men in prayers. Sanei admits that there are petrified fossilized devout ignoramuses who prevent such reforms in the law to take place. It has to be stated that many other jurists disagree with the reform-minded jurists. "

Funny thing is there is no certainty on the subject of women leading fard prayers from the hadiths hence calling those who oppose his reform on this issue as being ignoramuses is quite absurd. May Allah forgive him for such comments against the great Ulemas.

[azaan]

Salam,

I love the ilm of the Ahlulbayt rasulullah s.a.w.a. But sad to say that, eversince I converted to Shii, lately, I am beginning to lose faith and feel sad with the Shia community (everywhere) for no ending in slandering a marja' as dhal mudhal. If an ayatollah (so called at mujtahed level) can slander each other what can you expect from the followers then?

As for this issue, you could see that one tries to attack and defending each other views and opinions. Indirectly, they are having war of words in this forum. I think you can also imagine what going to happen if I were to put them together in a hall just to discuss this matter! Violence would be the end result right.

Basic rule of a thumb, please do not impose on one another to follow the ijtihad of your/his marja vice-versa. Just sit back and have a mutual respect and tolerancy and never say you are wrong I am right vice-versa!

Most importantly be ornaments to our Imams a.s. not against Imams a.s as shame. Tell people of goodness, and protect your tongues and hold it from excessive talk and offensive speech.

[huda]

salaams,

I have been studying Saanei's explanations on things for about a year and I have concluded that the man is truly a genius, and a great mercy of Allah on the Ummah.
Those that oppose him are simply ignorant folk.
I suggest reading http://www.ltakim.co...cles/Reform.pdf

His concept of "evolutionary fiqh" is fascinating, especially when it comes to women's rights. When social conditions change obviously some rules must also change.
He explains this very well when it comes to the issue of divorce and women, mashallah. I can't help but agree with him? Do you disagree? If a man is not failing in his marriage responsibilities but his wife doesn't want him, can you really force the woman to stay married to him? Isn't marriage a consensual mutual relationship? Is it that a woman has literally sold her self to a man she marries and she is compelled to stay with him until he releases her? What kind of medieval concept is this of marriage? Such things might have gone well in Patriarchal Arabia but now we live in Egalitarian societies. Even Sunnis got it all wrong when they insist that every woman must have a Wali to marry? Talk about oppression; as if women are subordinate to men for eternity.

Another interesting person is http://en.wikipedia....stgheib_Shirazi

This man, according to youtube reports, went on the Mimbar and condemned the rulers in Iran! They literally closed down his mosque.

I am beginning to feel that something evil is lurking in Iran. It is time for the reformists to take over.

If seems that every time someone criticizes Iran's policies, he/she is labeled an "enemy of God" and likely to be executed.


I looked at the reports and videos of Arash Rahmanipour and almost vomitted. Where is the proof that he was planning to blow people up.
He just looks like a young kid who wanted change and they hung the guy. That can't be right, can it? Subhanallah.

http://en.wikipedia....ash_Rahmanipour

May Allah forgive me if I am wrong but I think it is time to replace the Wali al Faqih with a Wilayat al Fuqahaa System.

What is wrong with having a council of Expert Jurisprudents ruling, rather than just 1 person?




I love and respect Sayyid Khamenei but I think he needs help in running the country properly and there are an abundance of fantastic scholars in Iran. Why doesn't he take their help? I heard even Ayatullah Javadi Amoli recently resigned.




It is time for change...may Allah hasten the appearance of our Imam .

[Iqra]

huda, on 10 February 2010 - 12:21 AM, said:

I have concluded that the man is truly a genius, and a great mercy of Allah on the Ummah.
Those that oppose him are simply ignorant folk.

Oh, we must all be stupid then. None of us are as enlightened as the mighty 'huda'!