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Wilayat Al-Faqih Discussion on the Guardianship of the Jurist

#1 Guest_Karbala110_*

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Post icon  Posted 21 October 2006 - 01:00 AM

(bismillah)

(salaam)

I am new to this forum.. Alhamdolilah there are a number of good resources on here. I have a question abt the concept of Wilayat-ul-Faqih in Shia Islam. I came across this link on Al-Islam.org and found it a bit confusing..

Quote

In 1969-70, the late Ayatullah Khumayni further elaborated on this concept in his work "Islamic Government" and the notion of wilayat-ul-faqih was enshrined in the Iranian Constitution in 1979. Ayatullah Khumayni went a step further and argued that a qualifed jurist is endowed with the same authority as the Imam (a.s.), encompssing all spheres of life. Many of the jurists disagree with him on this conept of wilayat-ul-mutlaqa. In particular, the late Ayatullah Khu'i shares Shaykh Murtada Ansaari's view that the jurists have limited authority in cetain aspects of one's life.

http://al-islam.org/...k/msg00005.html

How is that possible? I mean if one claims to have the absolute authority same as that of the Imam (as) then isnt it putting the status of the WF on the same level as the Imam (as)? And also by having the full authority are all the marjas under the authority of WF and answerable to him?

Please I would prefer if this is limited to discussions rather than insults being thrown at Ayatollah Khumayni.. I am never heard that from him and hence I seek to find out if he really said that or meant that and if he did then in what context...

Thank you in advance

Wsalaams
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Posted 21 October 2006 - 05:11 AM

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Salamun Alaykum wa Rahmatullah my Brother.

The 'Guardain of the Jurisprudence' has always been a contraversial topic, however that quote could be seen to be true to an extent, but of course also taken out of context, and not truly revealed in its full form. To truly understand the concept of Velayat-e Faqih (Wilayat-ul-Faqih), one must read the many books the Imam (ra) has publiches regarding the topic (including his book actually named Velayat-e Faqih). This position is only given to the most learned of all scholars, one must be qualified in all aspects of Islamic Law, Philosphy, etc, or else one is not even considered.

The scholar must be a just individual, and must be also pure and pious. The Guardian has to be an outstanding candidate, and as a result the most learned of all other candidates in order to be elected to this post. This position makes Him the leader of all the Ummah, not only the Shia, and he has to make decisions and lead on behalf of the Ummah. Of course not all of the Ummah follow the Guardian, however that is what is intended to happen. This position was intended by Imam Khomeini (ra) to be one that can unite and elad the Ummah to glory, until the return of Imam Mahdi (as). In no way is this position more powerful than the leadership of Imam Mahdi (as), and is not intended to be so. it is simply a temporary position until His return, so that in the time of His occultation the Ummah is not divided and doesn't go astray, because the Muslims of the world always need strong leadership.

The following is taken from the office of the current Supreme Leader, his Eminence Ayatollah Sayyid Ali Khamenei:

Quote

Leadership from the Perspective of Imam Khomeini (q.)

Conditions of Leadership

The necessary conditions to be available in a leader are directly connected to the nature of the Islamic government. Disregarding the general conditions like wisdom and proper management, two basic conditions, i.e. justice and to know the law, should also be available.
Even after the demise of the Holy Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.), when the bitter controversy about who would succeed him appeared, there was no theoretical dispute among Muslims over such an issue that his successor should be a knowledgeable and virtuous man. Mainly there were two controversial issues:
1- Since the Islamic government is a government of law, the person who governs should have a wide knowledge of law as it is referred to in traditions. It is necessary for the ruler as well as every one who takes charge of a post or occupies a job to acquire such knowledge; the only difference is that the leader should be the most knowledgeable. Our Infallible Imams (a.) had just used this same point – that the Imam (the religious leader) has to have superiority over others – to prove their imamate. Also, the queries that Shī‘ah scholars raise and criticize others fall within this very domain when they say: the caliph did not know the answer to a question about the Islamic Law or he did a certain act which was against the Islamic law, so he was not qualified for this office.
Muslims consider justice and knowing the law as essential conditions and basic elements while other things are neither significant nor necessary. For example, to know how the angles are or what the characteristics of the Creator (Allah) are has nothing to do with the matter of leadership. Similarly, suppose someone knows everything about physics and has discovered all the natural forces or knows music well, he will neither be qualified to be a caliph nor be given priority – over those who are just and knowledgeable in Islamic law – to occupy the office of leader.
Therefore, what is really related to the caliphate – which was the matter of discussion and talk during the era of the Noble Prophet (s.) and our Infallible Imams (a.) and which is accepted by all Muslims – is that the ruler or the caliph should, firstly, know the Islamic law and, secondly, be just and perfect in both religious beliefs and morals. This fact is admitted by the reason as well because the Islamic government is a government of law and not a government of desires or a dictatorship.
If the leader is not acquainted with law, he will not be competent to govern people. Because if he follows [another person] in taqlīd, that will weaken his power; and if he does not, he cannot put the Islamic law into effect. The tradition that "the Islamic jurists rule over the kings" (الفقهاء حکام علی السلاطین) is undisputed. If kings really follow Islam, they should follow the Islamic jurists and ask their opinion. In this way the jurists themselves will be the real rulers and, therefore, the power should officially be given to them and not to those who are compelled to follow jurists as they do not know the law.
2- A leader should be perfect in religious beliefs and morals, just and spiritually not polluted with sins. The individual who wants to take the responsibility for applying the Islamic penal code properly, to control the Muslims' assets and country's expenditures and wants Allah, the Exalted, to delegate him the administration of His servants’ affairs should not be a sinner because Allah, the Almighty, does not allow a tyrant to have such a power (لاینال عهدی الظالمین).
Unless the ruler is just, he will not administer justice in providing Muslims with their rights, collecting and distributing taxes properly, and putting the penal code into effect. Such a ruler may also make his friends, supporters and relatives take control of people and spend Muslims’ assets in fulfilling his own personal whims and desires.

It Is Not Necessary to Be a Marji‘

I was and I am still believing and I am insisting on the belief that it is not necessary that an Islamic leader should be a marji‘. A just mujtahid chosen by the honored experts – who are the representatives of the whole country [in the Assembly of Experts] – is just enough. When the people vote for the experts in order that they appoint a just mujtahid to rule them and those experts, then, has really assigned somebody to the leadership post, the leadership of such a person would be accepted by the people. In such a case, this person becomes the walī (leader) that has been elected by the people and whose orders and commands are, consequently, effective.

The Model of Leadership

In the early days of Islam, the ideal Islamic government ruled twice: first at the time of the Holy Prophet Muhammad (s.) and secondly when Imam Ali ibn Abī Tālib (a.) governed in Kūfah. They were the only two examples that the immaterial values dominated. In other words, they were governments of justice in which the rulers had never violated the law. During those two periods, a government of law was in control and perhaps we will never find another government of law with such qualities all over the world. A government whose walī al-amr – 'king' or 'president' in nowadays’ terms – was equal to the simplest citizen living there before the law.
It happened in the government of the early Islam. In this regard, there is a story about Amīr al-Mu’minīn, Imam Ali (a.). During his rule which was extended to include the Arab Peninsula, Egypt, Iran and many other areas, while it was he who was assigning judges, an individual from Yemen – living under the control of this very government – brought a lawsuit against the Imam (a.) and the judge summoned Imam Ali (a.). When Imam (a.) arrived in the court, the judge tried to show respect for him. Although the judge was really appointed by Amīr al-Mu’minīn (a.) himself, Imam (a.) said, 'While judging do not respect only one party. He and I should be equal. And after the judge issued a rule against Imam Ali (a.), he accepted it cheerfully.
In such a government all are equal before the law because the Islamic law is a divine one and all – whether the ruler, the Prophet, the Imam or the common people – are equal before Allah, be He blessed, the Exalted.

Leader among People

The Islamic leader was not like kings and presidents. He was coming and sitting among the people in a small mosque in Madīnah and listening to their words. Those who had the country's destiny in their hands were meeting the common people in the same mosque in such a way that when somebody entered the mosque could not differentiate the leader and government officials from the populace. They were just like people in their dress style and association. Justice was so applied that if a citizen from the lowest class of the society took a legal action against the first person in the country, the judge used to summon the leader who would attend the court.

Wilāyah of the Jurist Is against Dictatorship

In Islam it is the law which rules. The Noble Prophet (s.) was also following the law, the Divine law. He was not able to violate it. Addressing the Holy Prophet, Allah the Exalted says that if you say something against that which I say, I will seize you and cut off your aorta. If the Prophet (s.) was a dictator or a person that people were afraid lest he may dictate to them on enjoying the whole power, then a jurist could, also, be a dictator.
A jurist will never be despotic. A jurist with such characteristics is just. This kind of justice differs from the social justice. Jurist's justice is so that if he lies just once or if he has only a single look at a non-maḥram, he will be no longer considered as just. Such a person cannot and does not act against the law.

Powers of the Leader and Government

If an eligible person with these two characteristics rises and comes to power, he will acquire the same wilāyah (authorities) which were established for the noble Prophet Muhammad (s.) as far as administering the society is concerned. And, therefore, all people are required to obey him.
Such understanding that the governmental powers of the Holy Prophet (s.a.w.) were more than those of Imam Ali (a.), or that the government authorities of Amīr al-Mu’minīn (a.) should be more than those of the jurist, is just wrong. Of course, the moral qualities of the Prophet Muhammad (s.) is universally the best, and then those of Amīr al-Mu’minīn (a.). However, being in the highest rank of moralities does not increase one's governmental powers. Allah; who had given such authorities to the Prophet (s.) and the Infallible Imams (a.) like mobilizing and calling up the armed forces, assigning rulers and mayors, collecting taxes and spending them on the basis of Muslims' common interest; had given the same authorities to this very government with only one difference that He did not recognize a certain person for such a post, but gave a general title for it which is: 'the just Islamic jurist'.
When we say that after the disappearance [of the Imam of Time (aj.)] the powers, which the Prophet (s.) and the Imams (a.) had, are given to the just jurist; nobody should misunderstand this by thinking that the position of jurists is the same with that of the Imams (a.) and the Prophet (s.) because the discourse here is not on positions, but on duties and responsibilities. Wilāyah, which means the power of governing and administrating a country and putting the sacred Islamic laws into effect, is a very difficult and important duty. It does not provide the person with an unusual station or position to put him in a higher class in comparison with the normal individuals. In other words, wilāyah here; which refers to ruling, enforcing laws and administrating [a country]; is not an honor, as many conceive, but rather a weighty and great responsibility.
Among the matters that the jurist should accept its responsibility is the enforcement of the Islamic penal code. The question here is that is there a distinction among the Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.), the Infallible Imams (a.) and a jurist so far as applying penal code is concerned? If jurist' position is lower, should he pass a lighter sentence? Should the number of lashes received by an adulterer/ adulteress – which is 100 – be 150 if judged by the Noble Prophet (s.), 100 if judged by Amīr al-Mu’minīn (a.) and only 50 if judged by a jurist? Or it is the executive ruler who should have the responsibility of putting the Divine Penal Code into effect no matter whether he is the Prophet (s.a.w.); Imam Ali (a.), his representative, or a judge in Baṣrah or Kūfa; or an Islamic jurist now.
Also, the Noble Prophet (s.) and Amīr al-Mu’minīn (a.) were responsible for collecting taxes, khums, zakat, jizyah and taxes on lands. How much zakat should Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.) take? Should he take – from somewhere – twice as much as he take from another place?
What would Imam Ali (a.) do when he became a caliph? What about you if you become a jurist of time and influential? Is the wilāyah of the Prophet (s.) with respect to these matters varies from that of Imam Ali (a.) and a jurist? Allah, the Exalted, had appointed the Prophet Muhammad (s.) as the walī (leader) for all Muslims and as long as he was alive, he had control over even Amīr al-Mu’minīn (a.).
When the Prophet (s.a.w.) passed away, Imam Ali (a.) also had control over all Muslims even over the next Imam. It means that his governmental commands should have been obeyed by all and he was able to appoint and depose local rulers.
Just as the Noble Prophet(s.) was charged with implementing rules and establishing the Islamic system and Allah had made him leader and ruler of Muslims and considered submission to him as mandatory, a just jurist should also be leader and ruler, apply Divine rules and endeavor to set the Islamic social system up.

Governance Is a Primary Rule and Has Priority over Secondary Rules

If the government powers were considered within the domain of the Divine secondary rules, the delegation of the Divine government and the absolute wilāyah to the Prophet Muhammad (s.) would be a meaningless phenomenon.
The governance, which is a part of the absolute wilāyah of the Prophet Muhammad (s.), is among the primary Islamic rules and takes precedence over the whole secondary rules including the prayer, fasting and ḥajj. The [Islamic] ruler can ruin a mosque or a house which obstructs a street and pay the owner its price. He can also temporarily ban the mosques – when necessary – or demolish a mosque which proves detrimental [to the public good] in case it is impossible to prevent its harm without destroying it. The government can unilaterally revoke a Shar‘ī contract that it has itself signed with people when it is understood to be against the interest of the county or Islam. It is also able to stop any practice, be it a worship or not, if it is recognized to be against the good of Islam. The government can even temporarily prevent performing ḥajj, which is among the important Divine obligations, when it proves to be against the Islamic country's interest.

Wilāyah and Right of Ownership

In Islam it is legal [to own] property but it is restricted by certain limitations. Limitation of ownership is among the issues which are within the jurist's area of competence due to his wilāyah; which [wilāyah of the jurist] is, unfortunately, not clear for our intellectuals. In spite of the fact that ownership is respected by the sacred Legislator, walī al-amr (the Leader of Muslims) has the power to restrict a legal property or even confiscate it if he realizes that such ownership goes against the advantage of Islam and Muslims.


One can see that this position was created for the Ummah, to serve, protect, and lead them. One must consider the man who brought it about, Imam Khomeini (ra), and how his brilliant mind developed such a great concept. It is in no way meant to be a challenge to the authority and leadership of the Great Imam Mahdi (as). After Imam Mahdi's (as) return, the current Leader must step down and pass the banner of Islam unto Imam Mahdi (as) as the new leader of the Ummah, and all must follow Imam Mahdi (as), as seen in the picture below. I hope I have helped you understand a little more about the concept of Velayat-e Faqih, and allowed you to contradict those who say negative things about it.

Salamun Alaykum wa Rahmatullah wa Barakatuhu

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#3 User is offline   Istish'hadi 

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Posted 21 October 2006 - 06:53 AM

Ahsanta brother :)
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#4 Guest_Karbala110_*

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Posted 22 October 2006 - 05:07 PM

(bismillah)

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Thanks for your long reply brother Sepah much appreciated. It helped alot however there are more questions I am afraid not regarding the concept of WF but what is the opinion and view of people like Ayatollah Sistani and Syed Sadiq Shirazi? Do they accept the WF concept which was implemented by Ayatollah Khumayni? If they do can some one please post confirmation of this and if they do not can some provide what do they see against this concept of WF? and what is their opinion in regards to the Wilayat-ul-Faqih?

Thanks once again.

Wsalaams
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Posted 24 October 2006 - 10:08 PM

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Posted 25 October 2006 - 12:16 AM

View PostKarbala110, on Oct 22 2006, 06:07 PM, said:

(bismillah)

(salaam)

Thanks for your long reply brother Sepah much appreciated. It helped alot however there are more questions I am afraid not regarding the concept of WF but what is the opinion and view of people like Ayatollah Sistani and Syed Sadiq Shirazi? Do they accept the WF concept which was implemented by Ayatollah Khumayni? If they do can some one please post confirmation of this and if they do not can some provide what do they see against this concept of WF? and what is their opinion in regards to the Wilayat-ul-Faqih?

Thanks once again.

Wsalaams


i dont blieve any of the ayatollahs blieve in wilayat faghih not even the ones in iran (except ayatollah khomeini and khamenei).it doesnt really amaze me when ayatollah khamenei sayas that "a qualified jurist is endowed with the same authority as the imam" because they have been calling ayatollah khomeini "imam" since he returned to iran just before the iranian revolution, they probably mean the same thing but they have been just saying it in another way. on the other hand we come to the point that even if i blieve in wilayat faghih, who chooses the faghih for me and why is ayatollah khamenei chosen as the faghih in iran!

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وَمِنْهُم مَّن يَسْتَمِعُونَ إِلَيْكَ أَفَأَنتَ تُسْمِعُ الصُّمَّ وَلَوْ كَانُواْ لاَ يَعْقِلُونَ
[10:42] Some of them listen to you, but can you make the deaf hear, even though they cannot understand?


وَمِنهُم مَّن يَنظُرُ إِلَيْكَ أَفَأَنتَ تَهْدِي الْعُمْيَ وَلَوْ كَانُواْ لاَ يُبْصِرُونَ
[10:43] Some of them look at you, but can you guide the blind, even though they do not see?


ذَلِكَ بِأَنَّهُمْ آمَنُوا ثُمَّ كَفَرُوا فَطُبِعَ عَلَى قُلُوبِهِمْ فَهُمْ لَا يَفْقَهُونَ
[63:3] This is because they believed, then disbelieved. Hence, their minds are blocked; they do not understand.
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Posted 25 October 2006 - 07:38 AM

View Postnajafi, on Oct 25 2006, 01:16 AM, said:

i dont blieve any of the ayatollahs blieve in wilayat faghih not even the ones in iran (except ayatollah khomeini and khamenei).it doesnt really amaze me when ayatollah khamenei sayas that "a qualified jurist is endowed with the same authority as the imam" because they have been calling ayatollah khomeini "imam" since he returned to iran just before the iranian revolution, they probably mean the same thing but they have been just saying it in another way. on the other hand we come to the point that even if i blieve in wilayat faghih, who chooses the faghih for me and why is ayatollah khamenei chosen as the faghih in iran!


(bismillah)

(salaam)

Inshallah you are well...Can you please provide evidence to your claim that only Imam Khomeini and Ayatollah Khamenai believe in the concept of Wilayatul Faqee? I know for sure that there are many other ayatollahs who believe in this.. Ayatollah Lankarani being one of them. Ayatollah Shirazi is against the concept of Wilayatul Faqee but no other Ayatollah is.

As for calling Imam Khomeini an 'Imam' if you wish to take the literal meaning of an Imam here which is applied to our Infallibles then that is your preception. When one calls Imam Khomeini he is calling him in the sense of a Leader as Imam means a leader. And it was given to him due to his role in the revolution

Wsalaams

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Posted 25 October 2006 - 12:57 PM

Quote

i dont blieve any of the ayatollahs blieve in wilayat faghih not even the ones in iran (except ayatollah khomeini and khamenei).it doesnt really amaze me when ayatollah khamenei sayas that "a qualified jurist is endowed with the same authority as the imam" because they have been calling ayatollah khomeini "imam" since he returned to iran just before the iranian revolution, they probably mean the same thing but they have been just saying it in another way. on the other hand we come to the point that even if i blieve in wilayat faghih, who chooses the faghih for me and why is ayatollah khamenei chosen as the faghih in iran!


A large number of Ayatollahs beleive in the concept of Wilayatul Faqih, Including Ayatollah Lankari, Ayatollah Bahjat, Ayatollha Muhammad Baqir Al-Hakim(RA), Ayatollah Rafsanjani, Ayatollah Milani(ra) and so forth and so on.

As for Imam Khameni being elected as Al-Wali Al-Faqih...if you read His Biography you will see that he Himself did not want the position and beleived he was unfit but the council of Guardians beleived he was the most Qualified. (BTW Its other Ayatollahs who placed Him as the Wali) And Allah And His Messenger(sawa) know best.

Here are a series of very good lectures by Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah(HA) on Wilayatul Faqih.

http://www.islamicdi...871936d9875327d

This post has been edited by Istish'hadi: 25 October 2006 - 01:03 PM

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Posted 25 October 2006 - 09:39 PM

View PostIstish, on Oct 25 2006, 01:57 PM, said:

Quote

i dont blieve any of the ayatollahs blieve in wilayat faghih not even the ones in iran (except ayatollah khomeini and khamenei).it doesnt really amaze me when ayatollah khamenei sayas that "a qualified jurist is endowed with the same authority as the imam" because they have been calling ayatollah khomeini "imam" since he returned to iran just before the iranian revolution, they probably mean the same thing but they have been just saying it in another way. on the other hand we come to the point that even if i blieve in wilayat faghih, who chooses the faghih for me and why is ayatollah khamenei chosen as the faghih in iran!


A large number of Ayatollahs beleive in the concept of Wilayatul Faqih, Including Ayatollah Lankari, Ayatollah Bahjat, Ayatollha Muhammad Baqir Al-Hakim(RA), Ayatollah Rafsanjani, Ayatollah Milani(ra) and so forth and so on.

As for Imam Khameni being elected as Al-Wali Al-Faqih...if you read His Biography you will see that he Himself did not want the position and beleived he was unfit but the council of Guardians beleived he was the most Qualified. (BTW Its other Ayatollahs who placed Him as the Wali) And Allah And His Messenger(sawa) know best.

Here are a series of very good lectures by Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah(HA) on Wilayatul Faqih.

http://www.islamicdi...871936d9875327d


first of all i need to remind you rafsanjani is not ayatollah i respect him so much but he is just a politician not ayatollah.i blieve a larger number of ayatollahs do not believe in wilayat faghih such as seyed mohsen hakim ra (najaf), seyed khoei ra (najaf), seyed mohammad rohani ra (qom), seyed mohammad hadi milani ra (mashad), shaikh hussain vahid khorasani (qom), seyed sistani (najaf), shaikh ishaq faiaz (najaf), shaikh naser makarem shirazi (qum), seyed mohammad saeid hakim (najaf), shaikh bashir najafi (najaf), mirza jawad tabrizi (qom), seyed qomy (mashad), seyed qomi (qom), seyed sadiq rohani (qom), seyed mohammad hussain fadhlullah (beirut) and many others.
basically the only ones who blieve in wilayat faghih are either in charge of the iranian goverment or benefit from it such as seyed hassan nasrollah or others.
and what if i dont believe in those people who chose seyed khamenei, i do not even know who they are, why none of the maraj3 above chose him.i believe they are the main maraj3 in the world so they should choose the wali.

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وَمِنْهُم مَّن يَسْتَمِعُونَ إِلَيْكَ أَفَأَنتَ تُسْمِعُ الصُّمَّ وَلَوْ كَانُواْ لاَ يَعْقِلُونَ
[10:42] Some of them listen to you, but can you make the deaf hear, even though they cannot understand?


وَمِنهُم مَّن يَنظُرُ إِلَيْكَ أَفَأَنتَ تَهْدِي الْعُمْيَ وَلَوْ كَانُواْ لاَ يُبْصِرُونَ
[10:43] Some of them look at you, but can you guide the blind, even though they do not see?


ذَلِكَ بِأَنَّهُمْ آمَنُوا ثُمَّ كَفَرُوا فَطُبِعَ عَلَى قُلُوبِهِمْ فَهُمْ لَا يَفْقَهُونَ
[63:3] This is because they believed, then disbelieved. Hence, their minds are blocked; they do not understand.
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Posted 25 October 2006 - 10:02 PM

(bismillah)

(salaam)

Inshallah you are well...

From the list you have posted so elegantly half of those Ayatollahs support the concept of Wilayatul Faqee. And if you say they dont can you please provide proof for it? Scholars such as Ayatollah Nakrem Shirazi, Ayatollah Vahid Khorasani and many others from your list support the WF. Secondly the majlias-e-Khobagaan, Coucil of Intelligents is made up of Mujtahids and Marja who are the top ranking in the country so a great number of scholars make that council up. Now please tell me if there were so qualified and knowledgeable Ulema within the council why did they choose Ayatollah Khamenai? Also remember the coucil took a consensus and approved of Ayatollah Khamenai to be the next Wilayatul Faqee after Imam Khomeini, if you say that other scholars were more qualified than him then the question arises why did the council approve his appointment if they knew there were more knowledgeable scholars who could take the position? And his appointment was approved by many marjas too, People like Ayatollah Lankarani, Ayatollah Makrem Shirazi, Ayatollah Bahjat did not oppose his selection if they had a case to oppose they would have... So please provide proof to your claim that the mentioned ulema do not accept WF and as to why didnt the marja oppose the selection of Ayatollah Khamenai?

Wsalaams

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#11 User is offline   najafi 

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Posted 25 October 2006 - 10:52 PM

View PostA Follower, on Oct 25 2006, 11:02 PM, said:

(bismillah)

(salaam)

Inshallah you are well...

From the list you have posted so elegantly half of those Ayatollahs support the concept of Wilayatul Faqee. And if you say they dont can you please provide proof for it? Scholars such as Ayatollah Nakrem Shirazi, Ayatollah Vahid Khorasani and many others from your list support the WF. Secondly the majlias-e-Khobagaan, Coucil of Intelligents is made up of Mujtahids and Marja who are the top ranking in the country so a great number of scholars make that council up. Now please tell me if there were so qualified and knowledgeable Ulema within the council why did they choose Ayatollah Khamenai? Also remember the coucil took a consensus and approved of Ayatollah Khamenai to be the next Wilayatul Faqee after Imam Khomeini, if you say that other scholars were more qualified than him then the question arises why did the council approve his appointment if they knew there were more knowledgeable scholars who could take the position? And his appointment was approved by many marjas too, People like Ayatollah Lankarani, Ayatollah Makrem Shirazi, Ayatollah Bahjat did not oppose his selection if they had a case to oppose they would have... So please provide proof to your claim that the mentioned ulema do not accept WF and as to why didnt the marja oppose the selection of Ayatollah Khamenai?

Wsalaams


all the maraj3 including the ones i mentioned accept wilayat faghih but to some extend like they have the autority to take khums, zakat, take care of orphans and .... but none of them blieves to the extend that seyed khamenei and seyed khomeini believe in (a qualified jurist is endowed with the same authority as the imam).
i wonder why ayatollahs such as shaikh hussain vahid khorasani and mirza jawad tabrizi (who are about the same level as seyed sistani) are not part of that majlis e khobregan.this is because these people are called ayatollah a religious leader not a politician unlike others.

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وَمِنْهُم مَّن يَسْتَمِعُونَ إِلَيْكَ أَفَأَنتَ تُسْمِعُ الصُّمَّ وَلَوْ كَانُواْ لاَ يَعْقِلُونَ
[10:42] Some of them listen to you, but can you make the deaf hear, even though they cannot understand?


وَمِنهُم مَّن يَنظُرُ إِلَيْكَ أَفَأَنتَ تَهْدِي الْعُمْيَ وَلَوْ كَانُواْ لاَ يُبْصِرُونَ
[10:43] Some of them look at you, but can you guide the blind, even though they do not see?


ذَلِكَ بِأَنَّهُمْ آمَنُوا ثُمَّ كَفَرُوا فَطُبِعَ عَلَى قُلُوبِهِمْ فَهُمْ لَا يَفْقَهُونَ
[63:3] This is because they believed, then disbelieved. Hence, their minds are blocked; they do not understand.
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#12 Guest_Cyan_Garamond_*

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Posted 25 October 2006 - 10:55 PM

View Postnajafi, on Oct 25 2006, 09:39 PM, said:

first of all i need to remind you rafsanjani is not ayatollah i respect him so much but he is just a politician not ayatollah.i blieve a larger number of ayatollahs do not believe in wilayat faghih such as seyed mohsen hakim ra (najaf), seyed khoei ra (najaf), seyed mohammad rohani ra (qom), seyed mohammad hadi milani ra (mashad), shaikh hussain vahid khorasani (qom), seyed sistani (najaf), shaikh ishaq faiaz (najaf), shaikh naser makarem shirazi (qum), seyed mohammad saeid hakim (najaf), shaikh bashir najafi (najaf), mirza jawad tabrizi (qom), seyed qomy (mashad), seyed qomi (qom), seyed sadiq rohani (qom), seyed mohammad hussain fadhlullah (beirut) and many others.
basically the only ones who blieve in wilayat faghih are either in charge of the iranian goverment or benefit from it such as seyed hassan nasrollah or others.
and what if i dont believe in those people who chose seyed khamenei, i do not even know who they are, why none of the maraj3 above chose him.i believe they are the main maraj3 in the world so they should choose the wali.

First, let us agree that claims alone are not enough and cannot be taken at face value; today, there are so many claims, and we have to demand evidence. Now, even if what you say is actually true (that all the ulama you mentioned oppose WF), what effect does opinion alone have on the truth of a matter? In itself, it means nothing and we must go into logical reasoning ultimately. However, as this issue is currently under discussion. Let us try to bring evidences forth.

Ayatollahs Fatawa:

Saeed Hakim:

Quote

Q: 1) Who is the Wilayat al-Faqih in these days?
2) Is it obligatory to do taqleed of the Wali al-Faqih?
3) If someone does taqleed of a marja other than the wali al-faqih and in a particular issue the fatwas of both differ, what is the duty of the moqallid? Can he follow his marja, or does he have to follow the Wilayat al-Faqih?

A: Wilayat al faqih is a branch issue that religious jurists did not agree on.The individual had to choose the most knowledgeable jurist that is described with all necessary conditions for imitation - Taqleed.
If determining the right religious jurist (Merji) was based on religious evidence then the individual should follow the verdicts of the chosen jurist whether this jurist believes in the issue of wilayat al faqih or does not.

(http://english.alhakeem.com/quearchv/ws.htm)

Seestani:

Quote

§ Question : What is Grand Ayatollah Sistani's opinion about Wilayat-e Faqih (governance of jurist)?

§ Answer : Every jurisprudent (Faqih) has wilayah (guardianship) over non-litigious affairs. Non-litigious affairs are technically called "al-omour al-hesbiah". As for general affairs with which social order is linked, wilayah of a Faqih and enforcement of wilayah depend on certain conditions one of which is popularity of acceptability of Faqih among majority of momeneen.

(http://www.sistani.org/html/eng/main/index.php?page=4&lang=eng&part=4)

Fazel Lankarani:

Quote

Q1: My Questions are that, what is Wilayat - E - Faqih? Do a Wali-e Faqih's Fatwas override the Fatawas of other merja's? If they do, what is the need for other meraja-e Taqlid? If I am living in a foreign country other than the one under the rule of Wali-e Faqih, what are his rights on me and what are my rights on him? Should different countries have different walis (guardians)?
A1: 1. Welayat- e- Faqih (the Governance of the Jurist) means that during the time of the Greater Occultation, as it stipulated by Imam Mahdi (A), the Faqih has been vested with authority and powers through which the problems of the Muslims will be resolved. 2. The Waliye Faqih's fatwas are, in the affairs related to the government, are prior to the other Faqihs' Fatwas, unless a certain faqih considers the authority of the Faqih limited. In any case, a part from the issue of the Wilayat-e- Faqih, all Fuqaha (jurists) have a consensus that in the affairs that a certain faqih has undertaken another faqih is not allowed to concern himself with.
3. According to the Iranian constitution, Welayat (authority) of the Faqih is limited to Iran, but from a religious point of view, the authority of the Faqih is not confined to a particular region, therefore a Faqih may take steps when it is in the interest of Islam and the Muslims, although he is not present in that country.
4. The discussion of Welayat- e- Faqih is a detailed one, and you must refer to the related books.

(http://www.lankarani.org/eng/index.html)

Well, for now this is what I could find; if you have more, feel free to post. In addition to this list, we know that Ayatollahs Makarem-Shirazi, Khamenehi, Behjat, Saanehi, and perhaps others most likely believe in it due to their closeness or participation in it. Furthermore, Ayatollah Montazeri helped theorize the initial concept although today seems to have some disagreement with the current implementation.

We know certain others like Ayatollahs Sadiq Shirazi and Sadiq Ruhani do not believe in it. Now, for the rest you must bring proof they do not believe in WF, such as Ayatollahs Jawad Tabrizi and Hadi Milani, etc. Now whether or not Ayatollah Muhsin Hakim believed in it seems rather irrelevant to me, it is barely his affair, as he died before; hence, let us confine to time relevant ayatollahs. I think you may be right that Ayatollah Khoei didn't believe in it, but we should still see proof.

However, once again, let me reiterate, even if ALL ayatollahs rejected it, which they do not, that does not necessarily make it right or wrong in itself. To really get to the bottom of this issue, we must examine it on its logical and theological bases both, and even preferably separately.
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#13 Guest_Cyan_Garamond_*

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Posted 25 October 2006 - 11:00 PM

View Postnajafi, on Oct 25 2006, 10:52 PM, said:

View PostA Follower, on Oct 25 2006, 11:02 PM, said:

(bismillah)

(salaam)

Inshallah you are well...

From the list you have posted so elegantly half of those Ayatollahs support the concept of Wilayatul Faqee. And if you say they dont can you please provide proof for it? Scholars such as Ayatollah Nakrem Shirazi, Ayatollah Vahid Khorasani and many others from your list support the WF. Secondly the majlias-e-Khobagaan, Coucil of Intelligents is made up of Mujtahids and Marja who are the top ranking in the country so a great number of scholars make that council up. Now please tell me if there were so qualified and knowledgeable Ulema within the council why did they choose Ayatollah Khamenai? Also remember the coucil took a consensus and approved of Ayatollah Khamenai to be the next Wilayatul Faqee after Imam Khomeini, if you say that other scholars were more qualified than him then the question arises why did the council approve his appointment if they knew there were more knowledgeable scholars who could take the position? And his appointment was approved by many marjas too, People like Ayatollah Lankarani, Ayatollah Makrem Shirazi, Ayatollah Bahjat did not oppose his selection if they had a case to oppose they would have... So please provide proof to your claim that the mentioned ulema do not accept WF and as to why didnt the marja oppose the selection of Ayatollah Khamenai?

Wsalaams


all the maraj3 including the ones i mentioned accept wilayat faghih but to some extend like they have the autority to take khums, zakat, take care of orphans and .... but none of them blieves to the extend that seyed khamenei and seyed khomeini believe in (a qualified jurist is endowed with the same authority as the imam).
i wonder why ayatollahs such as shaikh hussain vahid khorasani and mirza jawad tabrizi (who are about the same level as seyed sistani) are not part of that majlis e khobregan.this is because these people are called ayatollah a religious leader not a politician unlike others.

Did not Imam Ali (as) show us that a true knowledgible and pious Muslim does not sit exclusively in a madrasa and teach? Was he not a 'religious leader' as you put it? Although, I am not trying to criticize that even; but, is not a person who renders services to the Muslim community in more ways--all other things being equal--superior to one who do so less? Imam Khomeini taught at the madrasa, spoke to the public, demonstrated and was almost fully participant in the affairs of the Muslims; does this not more resemble Imam Ali? Sayyid Ali Khamenehi also did this, although less in the madrasa, but more otherwise; he fought himself in the war.

I am afraid you conception of a 'religious' leader resembles more the Christian sort than the Muslim one.

Now who choose the WF? Surely, you know an assembly of Mujtahids were elected for the purpose.
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Posted 25 October 2006 - 11:16 PM

View Postnajafi, on Oct 25 2006, 11:52 PM, said:

but none of them blieves to the extend that seyed khamenei and seyed khomeini believe in (a qualified jurist is endowed with the same authority as the imam).
i wonder why ayatollahs such as shaikh hussain vahid khorasani and mirza jawad tabrizi (who are about the same level as seyed sistani) are not part of that majlis e khobregan.this is because these people are called ayatollah a religious leader not a politician unlike others.


(bismillah)

(salaam)

Firstly if you had taken your time to read the post by Bro Sepah you would have seen that Ayatollah Khamenai and Imam Khomeini do not believe that WF has the same authority as that of the Imam. Furthermore if you have taken the time to read the doctrine of WF described by Imam Khomeini in his book the Islamic Government, he clearly states that the role of WF is not the same as that of the Imam [as] nor the authority of the WF is the same as of the Imam [as]. Below are two extracts from the book of Imam Khomeini:

Quote

Islamic government is a government of law. In this form of government, sovereignty belongs to God alone and law is His decree and command. The law of Islam, divine command, has absolute authority over all individuals and the Islamic government. Everyone, including the Most Noble Messenger (s) and his successors, is subject to law and will remain so for all eternity—the law that has been revealed by God, Almighty and Exalted, and expounded by the tongue of the Qur’an and the Most Noble Messenger (s).

The authority that the Prophet and the Imām (‘a) had in establishing a government, executing laws, and administering affairs, exists also for the faqīh. But the fuqahā do not have absolute authority in the sense of having authority over all other fuqahā of their own time, being able to appoint or dismiss them. There is no hierarchy ranking one faqīh higher than another or endowing one with more authority than another.


Another one:

Quote

The two qualities of knowledge of the law and justice are present in countless fuqahā of the present age. If they come together, they could establish a government of universal justice in the world.

If a worthy individual possessing these two qualities arises and establishes a government, he will posses the same authority as the Most Noble Messenger (‘a) in the administration of society, and it will be the duty of all people to obey him.

Administration of the society means implementing Sharia in the society and propogating the idea to the people of the society it doesnot in any way shows tht the faqee has the absolute authority as the Prophet [pbuh].


I hope that clarifies that... as for the other part Inshallah I will reply to that if needed. I think brother cyan has provided a good reply to it already.

Wsalaams

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Posted 25 October 2006 - 11:33 PM

Salaam alykum

Nice to see so many threads. Wonderful to read and learn. Keep em coming.

Bro Cyan from what you have posted does that implicate that Ayatollah Sistani agrees with WF? Or is he only allowing his muqallids to follow the WF?

Bro Najafi you have given a lot of names if you can back them up with proof I would really appreciate it. I am kinda lost as to why so many knowledgeable Ulema would be left out and Sayed Khamenai would be selected ahead of them? And also what was the view of Ayatollah khoei in regards to the concept of WF which Ayatollah Khumayni proposed to establish in Iran?

Also no one has posted the views and opinions of Sayed Shirazi in regards to the WF.. I noticed the video link posted in the AIM central and after going through that is it true that the Shirazi household curse and condemn Ayatollah Khumayni and Sayed Khamenai? If so why? I mean being a scholar of such calibre is it right to curse other scholars?

Thanks

WSalaams
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#16 User is offline   najafi 

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Posted 26 October 2006 - 06:27 PM

brother Cyan_Garamond wilayat faghih its a religious issue and it is not some thing which only belongs to our time so i dont see anything wrong with mentioning seyed mohsen hakim's name as he was the most knowledgeable ayatollah at his time just before seyed khoei.
i also need to remind you that you cant compare ayatollahs to imams although imam ali fought for islam and did not just sit in the house and teach but imam jaafar sadiq actually spent all his life just sitting at home and teaching the religion to thousands of students. that is why we are called shia jaafari.
i cant see how going to war as seyed khamenei did qualifies him for being wali faghih! was seyed khamenei the only one who went to war? and also seyed khamanei did not even have a todhih al masa'al (risala) when he was selected as wali faghih which proves that he was not that knowledgeable at the time.

brother A Follower as you already have written seyed khomeini in his book has said "The authority that the Prophet and the Imām (‘a) had in establishing a government, executing laws, and administering affairs, exists also for the faqīh. But the fuqahā do not have absolute authority in the sense of having authority over all other fuqahā of their own time, being able to appoint or dismiss them". so he blieves the wali faghih has the same authority as imam but the only difference is that he does not have authority over other foghaha.

brother karbala110 i am sure seyed khoei did not believe in wilayat faghih but i am not sure about seyed shirazi. i am currently doing a research on all the fatawa about wilayat faghih but it takes a bit of time as not all the maraj3 have their own official website but i let you know when i am done.

My Signature
وَمِنْهُم مَّن يَسْتَمِعُونَ إِلَيْكَ أَفَأَنتَ تُسْمِعُ الصُّمَّ وَلَوْ كَانُواْ لاَ يَعْقِلُونَ
[10:42] Some of them listen to you, but can you make the deaf hear, even though they cannot understand?


وَمِنهُم مَّن يَنظُرُ إِلَيْكَ أَفَأَنتَ تَهْدِي الْعُمْيَ وَلَوْ كَانُواْ لاَ يُبْصِرُونَ
[10:43] Some of them look at you, but can you guide the blind, even though they do not see?


ذَلِكَ بِأَنَّهُمْ آمَنُوا ثُمَّ كَفَرُوا فَطُبِعَ عَلَى قُلُوبِهِمْ فَهُمْ لَا يَفْقَهُونَ
[63:3] This is because they believed, then disbelieved. Hence, their minds are blocked; they do not understand.
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#17 User is offline   A Follower 

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Posted 26 October 2006 - 08:18 PM

View Postnajafi, on Oct 26 2006, 07:27 PM, said:

brother A Follower as you already have written seyed khomeini in his book has said "The authority that the Prophet and the Imām (‘a) had in establishing a government, executing laws, and administering affairs, exists also for the faqīh. But the fuqahā do not have absolute authority in the sense of having authority over all other fuqahā of their own time, being able to appoint or dismiss them". so he blieves the wali faghih has the same authority as imam but the only difference is that he does not have authority over other foghaha.


(bismillah)

(salaam)

Inshallah you are well.. Bro did you even read the second extract from his book which I posted? Especially the highlighted part which shows that WF has no authority over other Fuqaha nor does it have the same status, position or authority as the Imam [as].

Inshallah I will add more extracts from the book to further develop on my point later.

Wsalaams

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#18 User is offline   najafi 

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Posted 27 October 2006 - 12:13 AM

View PostA Follower, on Oct 26 2006, 09:18 PM, said:

View Postnajafi, on Oct 26 2006, 07:27 PM, said:

brother A Follower as you already have written seyed khomeini in his book has said "The authority that the Prophet and the Imām (‘a) had in establishing a government, executing laws, and administering affairs, exists also for the faqīh. But the fuqahā do not have absolute authority in the sense of having authority over all other fuqahā of their own time, being able to appoint or dismiss them". so he blieves the wali faghih has the same authority as imam but the only difference is that he does not have authority over other foghaha.


(bismillah)

(salaam)

Inshallah you are well.. Bro did you even read the second extract from his book which I posted? Especially the highlighted part which shows that WF has no authority over other Fuqaha nor does it have the same status, position or authority as the Imam [as].

Inshallah I will add more extracts from the book to further develop on my point later.

Wsalaams


even in the second extract he says "doesnot in any way show that the faqee has the absolute authority as the Prophet", which suggests that the faghih might have the same authority as imam but not prophet.

My Signature
وَمِنْهُم مَّن يَسْتَمِعُونَ إِلَيْكَ أَفَأَنتَ تُسْمِعُ الصُّمَّ وَلَوْ كَانُواْ لاَ يَعْقِلُونَ
[10:42] Some of them listen to you, but can you make the deaf hear, even though they cannot understand?


وَمِنهُم مَّن يَنظُرُ إِلَيْكَ أَفَأَنتَ تَهْدِي الْعُمْيَ وَلَوْ كَانُواْ لاَ يُبْصِرُونَ
[10:43] Some of them look at you, but can you guide the blind, even though they do not see?


ذَلِكَ بِأَنَّهُمْ آمَنُوا ثُمَّ كَفَرُوا فَطُبِعَ عَلَى قُلُوبِهِمْ فَهُمْ لَا يَفْقَهُونَ
[63:3] This is because they believed, then disbelieved. Hence, their minds are blocked; they do not understand.
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Posted 27 October 2006 - 12:37 AM

View Postnajafi, on Oct 27 2006, 01:13 AM, said:

even in the second extract he says "doesnot in any way show that the faqee has the absolute authority as the Prophet", which suggests that the faghih might have the same authority as imam but not prophet.


Can you distinguish between the authority of the Imam and a Prophet please? As far as I see it the Imam has the same role as the Prophet apart from the fact that the Imam does not receive revelation. The role of an Imam in the society is to uphold the Sharia, guide the people through Quran and the Sunnah of the Prophet and propogate Islam and to keep the society on the path of Islam. The Prophet would receive revelation but also did all the things I mentioned in regards to the Imam so now can you clarify how does the authority of the Prophet distinguish from that of the Imam?

Wsalaams

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Posted 27 October 2006 - 05:10 AM

View Postnajafi, on Oct 27 2006, 04:27 AM, said:

brother Cyan_Garamond wilayat faghih its a religious issue and it is not some thing which only belongs to our time so i dont see anything wrong with mentioning seyed mohsen hakim's name as he was the most knowledgeable ayatollah at his time just before seyed khoei.
i also need to remind you that you cant compare ayatollahs to imams although imam ali fought for islam and did not just sit in the house and teach but imam jaafar sadiq actually spent all his life just sitting at home and teaching the religion to thousands of students. that is why we are called shia jaafari.
i cant see how going to war as seyed khamenei did qualifies him for being wali faghih! was seyed khamenei the only one who went to war? and also seyed khamanei did not even have a todhih al masa'al (risala) when he was selected as wali faghih which proves that he was not that knowledgeable at the time.

brother A Follower as you already have written seyed khomeini in his book has said "The authority that the Prophet and the Imām (‘a) had in establishing a government, executing laws, and administering affairs, exists also for the faqīh. But the fuqahā do not have absolute authority in the sense of having authority over all other fuqahā of their own time, being able to appoint or dismiss them". so he blieves the wali faghih has the same authority as imam but the only difference is that he does not have authority over other foghaha.

brother karbala110 i am sure seyed khoei did not believe in wilayat faghih but i am not sure about seyed shirazi. i am currently doing a research on all the fatawa about wilayat faghih but it takes a bit of time as not all the maraj3 have their own official website but i let you know when i am done.



Brother, we as Shia of Imam Ali(as) should take Him(as) as an example. As for Imam Al-Sadiq(as) it is true that he sat teaching and remained away from Politic s, but every Imam(as) acted in what he saw was most appropriate for His time. For Example Imam Ali(as), Imam Hassan(as), Imam Hussein(as), Imam Al-Sajjad(as), Imam Musa Al-Kadhim(as) and Imam Ali Rida(as) were very politically active and it is a known fact that our Holy Imam(May Allah Hasten His reappearance) will also be Religeously, Politicaly and Militarily active.

Also brother before Imam Khumayni(RA) the Shia nation was in a very pathetic state. We were of the very bad habit of whinging and complaining under oppression crying out AL-AJJAL AL-AJJAL. The concept of Islamic Revolution and with it the Concept of Wilatul Faqih Taught us the real meaning of Imam Al-Mahdi(AJF). It reminded us that He is Al- Mahdi Al-Muntathir (The Waiting Mahdi) and not Al-Mahdi Al- Muntathar( The Awaited Mahdi). He (AFS) is waiting for us more than we are waiting for him.
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